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Author Topic: "Bring Your Own Centroids" Gearsets  (Read 699 times)
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Daniel B
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« on: June 03, 2012, 12:13:39 PM »

Hi,
I'm finding your software really useful, but I'm wishing there was more support for non-circular gears that don't happen to be elliptica l. I'm working on something that needs a number of standard gears, but also a few non-circular ones, and they'll need to roll in a particula r way to get the motion the way I want it.

I've worked out the centroid curves for a matched set of gears to provide the motion, but I'm new at all this and I'm having a hard time working through the math to define the teeth. After that step there'd be putting together the whole gizmo, and animating it to confirm that it's really working right. I've succeeded in animating the centroids as if they were complete gears, but so far I've done this frame by frame! Tongue

Would it be possible to extend your software to accept mathemati cal equations defining arbitrary centroid curves?

Thanks,

Daniel
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ArtF
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« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2012, 01:18:51 PM »

Hi Daniel:

>>hard time working through the math to define the teeth.
 
   This could be because its sometimes impossibl e to tooth certain centroids ( depending on tooth parameter s..).

I do have on my list to revisit elliptica ls for that reason. Currently they use osculatin g circles to tooth them, this means a generaliz ed centroid woudlnt work. I do know the equations for the proper toothing constrain ts, and those
should apply to other than just elliptica ls, but its a complex subject to do, so Im unsure how Ill make out on that.
   Different if the centroid IS the teeth, much like imaginary gears, there you can just take  subjugate of the
original curve, but when you have to actually make teeth on a centroid, it can be very difficult in a non-circular
one. It IS on my list though, and I do give it thougth as to how best to approach it...

  I do agree though, a generalis ed toothing algorithm woudl be very handy to have.. and Ill likely attempt it this year.

Art


Art
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Daniel B
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« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2012, 07:07:28 AM »

Thanks, Art, I'm glad it's on your list of wanna-do's!  Smiley

In the meantime, would you be able to give me a bit of guidance? What toothing methods would you recommend, and where might I find out more about them? My centroids look as well-behaved and smooth as ellipses, so perhaps the osculatin g circles approach would work fine for them, but this is the first I've heard of it! Any pointers or even hints would be most appreciat ed, since I'm pretty much starting from zilch on all this.

Thanks so much.

Daniel
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ArtF
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« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2012, 07:46:56 AM »

Hi Daniel:

 Well, there are basically three ways to tooth a curve. First you have DSS ,
   which is Direct Simulatio n Subtracti on ( near as I can tell), in this method
   you basically simulate a rack moving around a gear. You focus on one tooth
   of that rack and subtract it from the centroid as you go. This is quite complex in
   practice, though I may try it myself next iteration .. Various rules exist for various
    instaneou s radius's found as you progress thorugh the curve. This IS though, the best method
    for achieving perfectio n. I would level this as EXPERT mode programmi ng.
   
    Secondly, you have formulaic represent ation. In this method you calculate the root,
    pitch and tip curves of the centroid, basically offset curves of the orginal centroid,
    then calculate each tooth using the formula for that tooth derived from various statistic s
    about its curve locations from centroid center. This is difficult to do as the centroid center
    often creates large swings in motion from the tooth locations center point and normal on its curve.
    This too requires EXPERT level programmi ng and math skills.
   
    The easiest, ( and therefore the one I implement ed for elliptica ls since elliptica ls were my first gear
    type) is the Osculatin g Circle approach. In this you calcuate the instantan eous radius at a tooth
    location. You do this by taking the derivativ e of the curve on both side of tooth center and fitting
    it to the equasion for a circle radius. This gives you the equivalen t circle size that such a tooth
    woudl be fitting on. ( Look for Wiki on Osculatin g Circle, youll see some good graphics on this method).
      Once you have the derived radius of the equivalen t circle, you simply place that tooth as if it were
    on that circle. This means each tooth is different as are my elliptica l teeth but they will mesh, though
    keeping pressure angles low is required as higher pressure angles push the limits of the theory that
    an osculated circel will fit on an arbitrary curve. This method works quite well on an ellipse but as you
    go higher and higher in eccentric ity, the osculatio n matches less and less to the centroid. This requires GOOD
    levcel programmi ng skills to my mind. Its not rocket science, but it isnt easy either.
   
    It sounds like your making centroid that dont match very well at all to circles ( as does an ellipse), and
    that likely means the efficicen cy of the osculated methos may not match well to your designs. If so, then
    items one or two are your best bet. Complex, but once you wrap your head around the job it isnt impossibl e.
    Those nice video's you see from China come from such a software written in China (using method 1)and seemingly well
    hidden from us mortals. Smiley. Id like to try that one soon as it sounds challengi ng and would make Gearotic worth
    many times what it sells for. ( No, I wouldnt raise the price due to such things, GM is already worth
    several times what we charge as we see it.).
   
    So its hard to give you a great answer here, what most people think is easy, is very much not. Toothing a
    random centroid is quite hard unless your quite a mathmatic s wizard, and quite a programmi ng one as well.
    ( I am neither, I just dont give up easily.) Just calculati ng the length of an ellipse to fit teeth on it
    is quite hard itself as there is no real answer, just a calculus approxima tion, the same is true of
    random centroids . If I were trying to do as you are, Id use osculatin g circle. Approxima te the circumfer ance of
    the curve, then divide it to section that will take each tooth. Consider each section on its own and figure out the circle
    it would fit on closest to.. this gives you the imaginary circles radius, root and pitch circles, then tooth is as if it
    actually were a circle. This will work, but you may have to tweak the pressure angles as a function of the distance from the
    osculated center to the actual centroid center in order to allow for a clean mesh.
   
     Item one above would be best. It allows for any curve that isnt impossibl e to be toothed, but requires quite a bit of
     computati on of subtracte d curves, inside/outside decisions, and derivativ e calculus to figire out what the subtracti on
     actually gives you. Ill be trying it in the new year, and if it works Ill likely have to rewrite much of GM to take
      advantage of it as if gives realistic trochoids and tips on any curve profile.
     
     
    Yell if you need anything explained as you go, Ill answer anything I can for you. Its an essoteric interest, you wont likely
    find much support on the web, I didnt as I went, so if I can help get you over rough pathces Im happy to assist.
   
   
    Art
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Daniel B
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« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2012, 06:50:48 PM »

Art,
Thanks for your very thorough response - who knows how long it would have taken me to figure out this much without your help!! Smiley

With all this in mind, and knowing that the fellow in China has already implement ed the best method, I think it at least worth asking him for a price quote!

I agree that your software's worth many times what it's going for. I certainly appreciat e this.

If I end up going after methods 1 or 2 in the future, I'll be happy to send you a copy of my doodlings, if they end up working, to help you in your efforts. I'm not particula rly gifted in math or programmi ng either, but I don't give up easy. Then again, I have a lot of other challenge s in this little project to be tackling soon, so if the china quote is reasonabl e it would sure save me some time.

Thanks again.

Daniel

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ArtF
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« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2012, 07:00:44 PM »

Ive never seen any contact infor the software, the company sells gears I think, but ot the software. I suspect its not at all simple to operate either, the number of free form variables is very high, and that implies complexit y. One of GM's troubles is trying to minimize complexit y and retain utility. Its a delicate blance at times, but search around, you may find something on it. Im sure youve seen the youtube videos on elliptica ls they show.. but they never actually tell you what software it is..


Art
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Art
Mooselake
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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2012, 08:47:00 PM »

I believe it's the Nanjing Plusplus Software Co., Ltd at http://www.8625plus2.com/ .

It says Tan is their contact person at support@8625plus2.com and us2com@gmail.com">www8625pl us2com@gmail.com .

Kirk
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ArtF
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« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2012, 06:40:41 AM »

Thx Moose,

   It does do cool looking work doesnt it?

Art
 
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Daniel B
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« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2012, 07:39:58 AM »

I've asked for a price quote now. In case anyone's intereste d, I'll let you know how much they charge to put teeth on a pair of centroids .

Besides the complexit y of the software interface, their screens are in chinese! While attemptin g to find a link to their screens again, I instead found the following interesti ng image through one of their "applicati ons of non-circular gears" links, which I'm posting for all of you clockwork lovers out there.

It looks like the teeth on these gears are entirely radial zig-zags, or close to them. I think that's the squarest gear I've ever seen, and it's also pretty cool to make a square gear mesh with a three-leaf clover! I'd guess the hole in the square gear indicates the seconds.

Daniel


* 2012 06 05 Watch gears.jpg (93.79 KB, 454x403 - viewed 56 times.)
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ArtF
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« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2012, 08:39:31 AM »

Very Cool isnt it? Youll notice as I said that all the teeth are very different to each other. This is a sign of the DSS methodolo gy where they actually rack the gear and do an analysis on the subtracti on of iteration s of rotation. Because they are so small I suspect they removed pressure angle all together. Not unusual as a way to getting nocircula rs to mesh. Its like our current elliptica ls, they work much better as you lower the pressure angle. I can see Ill have to look into this as a method of generatio n, it has the advantage that it will allow round as well as non-circs to be done in one method as opposed to the various methods I now employ depending on gear type...an d I doubt we'll see this methodolo gy in use in a hobby program if we dont do it here.. Id kinda like to have that kind of power myself..

Art
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Art
Mooselake
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« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2012, 08:14:12 PM »

It does do cool looking work doesnt it?

I really like the internal elliptica l videos.  Just turn the volume down first, some of the backgroun d music's pretty loud.

Kirk
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Daniel B
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« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2012, 08:48:04 PM »

The "standard charge" for a DXF/DWG file for a set of two gears is $990! Shocked

I consider this a bit pricey. But does anyone know of a better option?  Huh  None of the "professio nal" programs I've found with my internet searches offer support for custom centroids either. By this I mean they'd sell you the software, rather than using it for you once like with NanjingPl usPlus.

Art, if I need to spend this much, I'd rather it go into your hands than to some fellow in China. What do you think? I'd need the designs in about a month, before the delay would impact my project. I'll send you a private message with the centroids . If this gizmo actually works, it might be worth a little.

The main thing is that this way the brain effort would be more likely to turn into something that all of us would have more fun with!  Smiley

Daniel

« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 09:31:45 PM by Daniel B » Logged
BobL
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« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2012, 09:20:04 PM »

Kool looking and impressiv e, but other than that do any of these offer advantage s over other types of gears?


Bob Smiley
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Daniel B
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« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2012, 10:27:57 PM »

Quote
do any of these offer advantage s over other types of gears?

In theory yes, at least in one gizmo, but I won't know for sure until I can build & test the gizmo.
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BobL
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« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2012, 11:02:24 PM »

Dan;

 OK. Just curious as my experienc e with similar gearing generated very high and low pressure points on wheel depending on location of rotation.

Cheers
Bob Wink
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