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Author Topic: Guilloche!  (Read 9920 times)
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Mooselake
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« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2019, 10:30:54 AM »

I'll try the 90 degree later today, think we have a trip to the shelter to look for a buddy for the moosedog, who's doing a real good mopey dog impressio n lately.  I just got a small bottle of tapmagic, will see how a drop of that works on the burrs.

Only a short ways into the guilloche book, but skimming ahead shows the incredibl e patience and precision required to use a rose engine.  For a simple barleycor n pattern the "recipe" starts off with a 96 lobe rosette, medium amplitude, 10/10 degree cutter (so 20 degrees), .075mm depth, 2 passes per cut, 96 divisions, 25 clicks (0.50mm) pawl setting and then goes cut one line (the machine is turned by hand to cut), pawl 25 clicks, division 2, cut one line ...  and continues for about 30 repetitio ns.  Miss one click and you ruin the work.  Starting to see why it took 4 years of school, and why they use magnifyin g loupes in the videos for positioni ng.

Been starting to think (but not actually try) about boolean operation masks for figures and things like basketwea ve patterns, figures will be far easier, I think.  It's hard (or the search fu is weak lately) to find much informati on about complex CNC guilloche patterns online, and how to make them, so I'm just hoofing it

Kirk
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Mooselake
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« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2019, 06:05:38 PM »

A drop of tapmagic self-distributed (sprayed everywher e) but it spread out nicely with a little finger wiping.  Today's effort was at 0.05mm with the 90 degree bit, planned to do another copy at 0.1mm but between the shelter trip (will be taking the moosedog next time, after we get a copy of his immunizat ion records from up north) and taking Mrs. Moose to dinner have run out of time.

The outer pattern came out well, more chiseled looking in person if not the video.  No burrs on the edges at 100mm/sec, might boost the next test up to 200 (yes, I know, shouldn't change two parameter s at a time). The center was too much detail and washed out, will see if deeper makes it better

Kirk

Edit, thought the lighting and focus came out better, guess not.  Need to figure out how to photograp h these properly since they look much nicer in person.  There's a flourish in each corner, but they didn't turn out real well at this cutting depth


* 20190826Guilloche.jpg (278.79 KB, 1010x1067 - viewed 149 times.)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 01:50:35 PM by Mooselake » Logged
Mooselake
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« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2019, 11:30:05 AM »

Got a chance to try again, 0.1mm and 200mm/min.  Overall I think the first (top in the picture) looks better but it's close.  The center is still wiped out, past the limit that this bit/machine/material will do.  Vexx was still open so I screensho tted the actual design for compariso n.

Kirk



* Vexx 2019-08-30.png (212.43 KB, 456x459 - viewed 143 times.)

* 2019-08-30Guilloche.jpg (325.96 KB, 807x1552 - viewed 141 times.)
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ArtF
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« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2019, 01:15:54 PM »

Doesnt look bad, I wonder if its a case of needing to use special staining technique s. Like paint
the object with a  layer of wax before each cut and applying stain after each cut of another color.
Then recoating with wax and repeating .. I suppose one would need to add a Stop after each section of cut
but I can see analine dyes looking good in multicolo r that way...

Art
 
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Mooselake
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« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2019, 05:42:09 PM »

I think there's too much detail in the center for it to work, at least in mystery aluminum, just levels it off instead of leaving a pattern. These are intended to see what the machine and I can do, may have limited out the 90 degree bit.  I might try a new 20 degree just for fun, see if it does any better.  I've found somebody that's tried the $50US eBay diamond drag bit on acrylic with good looking results, but am strongly resisting the urge to buy one until I've figured out the V bit.  I'd like to try some boolean operation s with line art images and guilloche too, like mask off a leaf shaped area from a pattern and see how that goes.  I spent a little time playing with a free program called ZebraTrac e, turns pictures into guilloche like patterns, but it relies on cutting deeper to get wider traces and this material is too thin.  Since it's double sided taped to the spoilboar d it'll have to wait until I finish up this workpiece first, plus it's another distracti on from my primary mission.

Interesti ng you should mention staining, enameling guilloche is/was popular and trying some transpare nt enamel is on my todo list.  Have to get some good ones first.

Tried poking around with Vexx's extra buttons, the hole patterns and celtic knots, guess they aren't implement ed yet.

Kirk
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ArtF
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« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2019, 07:04:28 AM »

Kirk:

>>hole patterns and celtic knots

  Celtic works, but you need to have a vector(s) selected as a group for it to work.
(Draw a box, select edit and convert it to a group. Then press celtic fill).

 Not sure what hole patterns your speaking of...

Art
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Mooselake
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« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2019, 04:08:34 PM »

Using join fixed celtic knots, should have rewatched the video.  What I was calling hole patterns is really grid fill, got that working as well.  User error.

Kirk

Edit: changed "not using" to "using"


* spiralcircle.jpg (112.04 KB, 592x532 - viewed 135 times.)
« Last Edit: September 01, 2019, 12:57:03 PM by Mooselake » Logged
Mooselake
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« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2019, 01:01:34 PM »

Did the test pattern again with a 20 degree flat v bit, 0.1mm doc, 100mm/minute.  While the detail is better I don't like the effect as well, lines vs chiseled cuts, and it left a burred edge.  Caved in and ordered a 90 degree diamond drag bit and collet set off eBay, will see how that works out, but for now the 90 two fluter wins.

Nice and sunny, light breeze.  Winds and rain will supposedl y start sometime tonight from the National Hurricane Center.  Brought the kayaks and trash cans into the garage, will continue watching track and forecast to decide if it's worth hauling the lanai furniture inside.

Kirk


* 20190901Guilloche.jpg (205.76 KB, 807x776 - viewed 148 times.)
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Mooselake
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« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2019, 01:14:20 PM »

I don't know if this is possible (pencil and t square guy), but I'm trying to take a simple guilloche pattern and use it to fill a random downloade d celtic knot dxf, remove all the guilloche pattern except within the knot which is composed of what look to be closed vectors.  I was hoping that intersect would work but no joy.  I grouped each object after importing or creating them.   Weld (really need to rewatch the videos) turns the imported dxf into a bunch of circles.  I also found an interesti ng undo feature, if I give up by clicking new after several failed undone attempts the old objects stay on the screen but are no longer selectabl e or deletable .  I've attached a .vexx file

FWIW, I couldn't make Carbide Create do it either.  My goal is to take a vector object and only have guilloche patterns inside it.  For example, there's old engraving s where only the interior of a leaf (or dragon) in my book are engraved and I was wondering if there was a way do to something similar.  A more advanced technique would be having different patterns inside and outside the leaf (dragon, flower, etc) but one thing at a time

Kirk

* SubtractTest.vexx (1168 KB - downloaded 62 times.)
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Mooselake
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« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2019, 03:46:23 PM »

Barleycor n!  Aka Grains d'Orge. The first one is a (simulated) 96 lobe rosette, the second is a 32 lobe.  I adapted the recipe from my Guilloche book.  Giggle "barleycor n guilloche" and you can see how the experts do it, in gold on expensive watch dials.

Creating them is fairly simple, if tedious.   Set the inner and outer elliptica l order to the desired number of lobes, and set both elliptica l coefficie nts all the way right (you could use a higher number but for my 25mm size the smallest, i.e. most defined lobes, worked best) and set both phase sliders to 0 (not completel y necessary, but if left at 100 you can't read the numbers easily).  Set the maximum radius as desired, fill type to line, density to one.  Using the outband and inband radius place the outer wiggly circle where desired.  Click next.  Enter a bigger max radius, then adjust the inband radius so the new line is just inside the first.   Use the phase controls so the lobes touch, i.e. the valleys on the outside line match the peaks on the inside line, both should be the same. You will need to tweak the inband (or outband, either works) radius, I zoomed in on one lobe and stayed their, panning the display when necessary .  Happy?  Click next, readjust the max radius (you need the outband outside the new line), set phase to zero, tweak inband radius (the left and right arrow keys are really handy) so the valley and peak just touch.  Repeat, varying the phase from 0 to what works, each time.  Hey, it's easier than clicking the rose engine pawl 25 times.

The 96 lobe, my first try, looks good under magnifica tion but is too small for these aging eyes (cataract surgery after the knee heals up...).  The 32 lobe pattern is just a little too coarse, should have either used a higher elliptica l coefficie nt or more lobes since it left some uncut aluminum in the outer rings (I think there's 16 loops, something like that) but it otherwise looks pretty good magnified .  I also attached the printed version from my book (all rights belong to the author, of course), so you can see how it's laid out.

90 degree two flute endmill, 25mm diameter, 0.1mm doc at 200mm/minute.  Output as dxf and cammed with carbide create.  And don't save your vexx file as .dxf, by the time I realized why Carbide Create didn't like it I'd already restarted from scratch and overwritt en the file.

Kirk


* ShevlinBarleycorn.jpg (257.25 KB, 800x850 - viewed 158 times.)

* dualBarleycorn.jpg (107.2 KB, 800x347 - viewed 161 times.)

* barleycorn96.jpg (168.23 KB, 800x1066 - viewed 147 times.)
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Hessel Oosten
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« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2019, 04:08:11 PM »

Hi Kirk,

Super !+!

I struggled a little bit tonight with your VERY nice pattern, but could not succeed in repeating it.

How did you set the number of lobes (96 and 32 in this case) ?

Please would you be so kind to attach the saved Vexx file here, to see easier what you are doing ?

Thanks,

Hessel
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Mooselake
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« Reply #41 on: September 04, 2019, 11:05:39 AM »

Hessel

I'm sort of working along with a book on Guilloche and Rose Engines and trying to duplicate some of the simpler patterns, of course no guarantee that this is the right or best way since I'm really using the wizard in unintende d ways.

I used the Elliptica l Order box to set the number of lobes, and slid the coefficie nt slider all the way to the right to get the "gently undulatin g" curve.  I've been setting both the inner and outer envelopes the same for now, but real rose engines used a variety of shapes.  Search for Bill Oombs for a rose engine simulator, trying that out is on my list for the future.  I set phase% to zero, only because it makes it easier to read and match up the numbers on successiv e traces.

Fill density is set to 1, Fill type to line.

The maximum radius will need to be adjusted to be greater than where you want the trace.  Use the Outband and Inband Radius sliders (if you click on them you can use the keyboard arrow keys for fine adjustmen ts) to get the size where you want it.  When the outer ring looks right (it's actually the middle one in the screensho t) then click  next.

I closed Vexx before the second screensho t so some values might be a little different .  The Maximum Radius will change, set it back to your first value or something that gets the outer envelope outside your work, in this example I made it a little larger.  You'll do this every time, different values for max radius might make the slidering easier as the pattern gets smaller.

Use the InBand Radius to get the second trace close to the first one, then use the Phase slider to align the high spots so they touch.  You need to set both the inner and outer phase the same (or maybe not, if you want a different effect).  Then zoom in and get the two bumps almost touching, and adjust the phase if necessary .  When it looks good then click next and repeat, alternati ng a phase of zero and the value that lines them up.  After a couple passes it goes fairly fast.  Repeat until you get the desired effect or get tired of repeating Smiley

Hope that helps!  After rewatchin g the Vexx videos I'm going to try the celtic knot cutout again, maybe with the snip tool and reworking the knot dxf to make sure all the shapes are closed.  We'll see.  My inspirati on is attached (this one is from a swiss watch company via a link on cnccookbo ok.com) but I'll never get that good.  No special reason for the celtic knot other than I like them and had this particula r dxf sitting around.  Why try something easy when there's something much harder sitting around Smiley

The diamond dragon (aka drag bit) is on it's way, a couple 120 degree bits from drillman1 on eBay are here (shipped and at the post office half an hour after ordering Saturday afternoon on a US holiday weekend, highly recommend him if you eBay in the states), and I used a christmas gift card I'd forgotten about to order some 1.5"/38mm 20g brass "stamping" disks. I expect my problems are more operator than material, but brass is the tradition al practice material.  I don't think I'll be trying gold, silver, or platinum or ordering a $100K US MADE Rose Engine...

Kirk



* VexxScreen1.png (167.34 KB, 800x468 - viewed 145 times.)

* VexxScreen2.png (48.43 KB, 800x549 - viewed 127 times.)
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Mooselake
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« Reply #42 on: September 04, 2019, 11:13:42 AM »

MADE is the brand of the Rose Engine, after the 4 maker's first initials.  After I reread that it looked like US made, and while it is that's not helpful.  Don't think Mrs. Moose is up to that anytime soon, but it's a beautiful machine that would look great in our living room, better than the new table and sofas <ducks>

Kirk
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Mooselake
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« Reply #43 on: September 04, 2019, 12:14:30 PM »

Am getting a bit frustrate d.  I created a guilloche pattern, grouped it, imported the dxf knot, grouped that, then put the knot under one side of the guilloche .  No joy with the snipping tool, didn't see any effect from it.  I then drew a simple box around the knot.   Snip will see the lines in the knot, and delete them, but still will not touch any of the loops in the guilloche pattern.  Also don't understan d what subtract and intersect do, no matter which order I select the two groups, or even the guilloche and the square, can't seem to make either do anything.  I was thinking they were boolean operation s, but maybe not.

Minor nit, when I imported the dxf knot it changed the size of the workspace (the knot was 200x200 or so) and I couldn't find an option to change it back.  Also at the scale I'm working at (25mm x 25mm) the grid is too coarse and I couldn't find a way to change the grid spacing.

Kirk
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Hessel Oosten
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« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2019, 04:54:44 AM »

Thanks Kirk !

Will try it a.s.a.p. but first I have to go on vacation for a week  (order of the Mrs. here.. Wink

H.
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