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Author Topic: Other Chronometer escapements and powering mechanisms  (Read 5233 times)
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BillM
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« on: February 13, 2016, 04:57:09 PM »

Hi Art

I started to build a simulatio n of a chronomet er and the closest I could come at this time was try-6.gth.  I tried to attach it to an earlier message but couldn't because the .gth file is ~11MByte.  If you'd like to see it, I could email it directly to you.

 Being a newbie to Gearotics, it took several tries to figure out getting the gears and spacings that I was after.  Your videos and some of the clock / escapemen t discussio ns on the forums were also a big help.

The way escapemen ts are modeled in Gearotics, I imagine makes the coding more manageabl e.  In the clock world the escapemen t regulates the use of energy from a source e.g., a spring, weights rather than powering the clock.  Is there any chance in the future that a simulated clock mechanism could be powered by a spring or weight?

The chronomet er I'd like to model contains things like a contrate wheel (aka, gear), fusee, maintaini ng spring within the fusee, chain barrel, remontoir e, and more.  The escapemen t is one that is not modeled currently: a 15tooth crown wheel.

I have access to a E Howard Co. tower clock mechanism and that will be another simulatio n model that I will probably try this year.

Bill


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ArtF
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« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2016, 06:38:18 PM »

Hi Bill:

 >>If you'd like to see it, I could email it directly to you.

 Even my email wont handle it, but Id like to see a snapshot of it if you get time..

>>Is there any chance in the future that a simulated clock mechanism could be powered by a spring or weight?

   Its possible. My conundrum is that Gearotics reason for existance was to make things as
easy as I could for people to make moving mechanism s that they otherwise might not even
attempt. In the end to keep complexit y own I opted to make the driver power arrive
magically from the drive master.

   I may , however, at some point try to add a more user configura ble simulatio n,
should I ever figure out how to do that. Smiley

   I am pleased that Gearotic can help in the complexit y of what your doing,
its gratifyin g. When I start to do a module or escapemen t, its always built
on faith that "if you build it, they will use it. " , so far so good. Smiley

 Ill keep your suggestio n back of mind for next developme nt season in GM..

Thx

Art


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BillM
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« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2016, 07:12:29 PM »

Hi Art

Attached are some screen captures of my Try-6 attempt to model an existing chronomet er.   The escapemen t is one of your standard ones.  The real one uses a 15-tooth crown wheel that would be at right angle to the "contrate" wheel.

I don't have much time tonight to add much more descripti on.   I used XNVIEW to perform the screen captures because the Snapshot and REC do not work properly on either of my Windows10 systems.

If I have time, I can try to take a video of the model later this week using my digital camera.

Bill


* Try-6-1.jpg (181.11 KB, 1680x1048 - viewed 322 times.)

* Try-6-2.jpg (186.07 KB, 1680x1048 - viewed 303 times.)

* Try-6-3.jpg (230.47 KB, 1680x1048 - viewed 309 times.)
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ArtF
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« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2016, 09:00:38 PM »

Looking good Bill, do you intend to actually build done of these?
If so, what kind of material?

Art
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Mooselake
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« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2016, 06:19:23 PM »

Bill, try zipping your gth file and attaching it.  I did a quick test and got about a 4:1 size reduction, although it was a very simple mechanism .

Kirk
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BillM
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« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2016, 02:42:13 PM »

Hi Art

I don't have plans to build the chronomet er.  If built, the gears would be made of brass just like the original.

I am not like most of the users of Gearotics 2.  My aim was to create reasonabl e simulatio ns of clock mechanism s.

A matter of terminolo gy::   I've been looking through the forums and realized that clock makers terms differ from those used in Gearotics .  I think elsewhere in the forums a writer mentioned some clock terminolo gy (axles are called arbors, gears are called wheels, pinions are pinions but the teeth are referred to as leaves).


The escapemen t  I mentioned, "Crown wheel," is better known by it's earlier name of verge.   Really old time clocks used a verge/foliet combinati on.  The proper escapemen t for the my simulatio n model is verge/ balance wheel, where the balance wheel's timing is controlle d by a spring.

On the wish lists for new Gearotics features was one for crown gears.   After looking at the old clock terms, a name for "Contrate Wheel" is probably exactly what the writer under the "Crown gear" was describin g.  The gear is a short cylinder. The teeth appear to be pretty much straight cuts radiating from the center of the gear.  The mating pinion also appears to have straight cuts teeth.  The arbors of the contrate wheel and the pinion are at right angles to each other.

I read the note regarding zipping the .gth file.   I don't have the model with me but I'll look into it when I get home.

Bill
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ArtF
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« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2016, 03:16:25 PM »

Hi Bill:

 Yes, much of my terminolo gy is mixed from clock making conventio n ( if there is such a thing. Tongue )

   I have looked at crowns in the request you mentioned, but I noticed even the examples posted
wouldnt mesh, as you say the cuts would have to originate from center, Im still consideri ng my options there..

  Pinion gears "leaves" are usually in the context of epicycloi dal tooth forms, and the leaves are usually puposely
smaller and more rounded that their wheels forms in order to keep any dust from jamming the works. Clocks
tend to have very loose gears in the drivers from escapemen t forward, and stronger tightly meshed spurs
in the train before the drive device , spring or weight.  Verge seems to be one of those terms that has slowly merged with
the actual pendulum mechanism s as well. The epicycloi dics in Gearotic changed from the old versions of the software
as they were a more tightly meshing form derived from the math , but when writing gearotic I changed them to
a specifica tion sent to me by a horologis t. Its why the pinions now have rounded teeth.

   I continue to look into crown, verges or small bevel forms and will likely eventuall y add one or more, youll find
Im fairly eclectic in what I add or change, usually its when I find myself needing something that Ill end up
adding things to make it easier. Its why Gearotic exists, really ,as a place for me to put all the work I do
on any topic into general release in hopes it helps more than just me. This developme nt season I havent added
much to gearotic itself , but as my laser did its first test fires under Auggie this week, I suspect by next developme nt season
ll be back to adding toys to gearotic as I start to tie it all together into one large program like a swiss army knife,
which is my end game plan. I love clocks, widgets and moving mechanism s of all kinds, and really admire the work
people do, so Gearotic will probably never stop developme nt, I just cant ever say if the next module is a escapemen t,
or a way to make a cool looking piece of art.

  Thanks for the post , it keeps me thinking in that line.. for example I must now go search Contrate. . never heard
of the term. :-)

Art

 

  I find myself looking at wind driven objects with a certain facinatio n lately .. so I may go that way.. Id need more 90 degree
tranmissi ons like crowns if I do end up in that direction .

Thx
Art




   



   
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BillM
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« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2016, 07:59:55 PM »

Hi Art

I thought I'd add some backgroun d on the chronomet er simulatio n that I've been working on.

If you check out the following links to the Mystic Seaport site it's the entire story of John Harrison that really fascinate d me.  John was "self-educated", a carpenter by trade who picked up clock making possibly by examining clocks of his day.  Solving the problem of longitude in the 1600's and 1700's was probably akin to us landing a man on the moon.  John Harrison spent his life improving the design of Grandfath er clocks (long case clocks in clock makers parlance).  He took on the challenge of building a sea going clock.  What led him to the final solultion to the sea clock was his desire to improve a pocket watch. 

http://www.mysticseaport.org/ships-clocks-stars/

I couldn't decide which video was better because they are very similar:
https://www.facebook.com/mysticseaport/videos/10153873695884288/

https://www.facebook.com/mysticseaport/videos/10153655369314288/

The design for John Harrison's Timekeepe r was actually published by the Board of Longitude .  The link below is a high resolutio n digital copy of the descripti on of John's prize winning fourth Chronomet er (simply known now as H4).  I downloade d and printed out the english portions of the document along with the mechanica l drawings of the device.

http://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/view/PR-PBA-01740/6

I found the following link interesti ng.  Near the bottom of the webpage is a sketch of the mechanism:

http://www.frodsham.com/harrison-h4/

The verge (crown wheel) is shown and the shaft that drives it will lead you to the "contrate" wheel. The balance wheel is not shown. If you count the fusee arbor as the "1st" arbor, then the 2nd arbor actually drives the minute hand.  The third arbor has a gear that has teeth cut on the inside sort of like a planetary gear.  The fourth arbor powers the "seconds" hand.

Anyway, I plan to get a video to you soon.

Bill
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BillM
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« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2016, 08:27:53 PM »

Hi Art:

Last night, 2/15, I figured out how to make a video of my Try-6 simulatio n model.

As I mentioned in earlier posts, both of my computers now run Windows 10 & the REC and Snapshot functions do not work.  It's a Microsoft Windows 10 problem that does not necessari ly show up on all platforms .

There are three free utilities that may help other users if they have problems with these Gearotics Functions due to Windows 10:

Screen snapshots:

XNVIEW has a screen capture mode that can be set to do multiple screen captures on an active window. I used this to make the .jpeg images in my earlier post.

An alternate to the REC function:

CamSudio is another open source program that allows screen captures of videos in an active window.  It can output in AVI, MP4, or Shockwave format.

Freemake video converter can be used for free and in a paid version allows fancier editing.  More important ly it can convert between different video formats and to change the resolutio ns of a captured video.

Try-6.gth Video

It took several tries for me to settle on the one attached to this post.  I hope the result is satisfact ory.  The original video from CamStudio capture was ~6.8Mbyte.  I used Freemake to cut out some of the beginning and ending seconds & then convert it to a smaller size.  I decided not to record audio to decrease the file size.


Bill

* Try-6sim.avi (2193.86 KB - downloaded 124 times.)
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John T
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« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2016, 08:45:04 PM »

Just as a matter of trivial interest the "Grandfath er Clock" got its name from the song and up til then they were simply long case clocks.
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ArtF
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« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2016, 09:13:08 PM »

The man did excellent work didnt he? , pity they didnt pay him as promised. .

Art
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BillM
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« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2016, 09:28:10 PM »

There is a book "The Quest For Longitude" a circa mid1990s compendiu m of talks given at a symposium on that subject.  He received 10,000 pounds sterling when he took apart H4 in front of the Board of Longitude and turned over his drawings.  To get the remaining 10,000 pounds he had to make two more copies of H4.  He was quite old by the time he made H5 there is no record of an H6.  It was by order of the King that he got some most of the remaining money (less advances that he received).  One article mentioned that over John Harrison's lifetime he did receive over 20000 pounds sterling. What John didn't get was the acknowled gement that he had won the prize.
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ArtF
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« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2016, 09:38:48 PM »

Well back then that was a true fortune, so I guess he made out well..

And when you consider he had no cnc...wow

Art
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BillM
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« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2016, 08:14:17 PM »

Art

I've started over on the chronomet er simulatio n...now the gth file is >20Mbyte.  I've tried Kirk's idea of doing a zip file but even that is >7Mbyte.   I do have a tool under Glary Utilities that can spit files in to more manageabl e sizes...i t can also create an addtional .exe file that would allow the file to be recombine d.

Attached is a text file summary of the model that I now call ChronoSim-1.

If you are intereste d in trying to recombine a zipped version of the ChronoSim-1.gth file let me know and I'll give it a try.

Bill


* ChronoSim-01.txt (33.31 KB - downloaded 86 times.)
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ArtF
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« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2016, 08:28:38 PM »

Looking good Bill,

 No, dont go through all that, Ill wait for the photos when your done.  :-)

 Kinda satisfyin g when you create a large sim and watch it run , eh?


Art
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