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General Category => Tickers => Topic started by: marklazarz on March 10, 2016, 07:52:23 PM



Title: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: marklazarz on March 10, 2016, 07:52:23 PM
I recently built a kinetic sculpture called "Zinnia" from Clayton Boyer.  For anyone intereste d in learning about another kinetic drive mechanism, I highly recommend looking into Clayton's commercia lly available plan.  Without giving away secrets, a summary of my build can be seen here http://markswoodchips.com/zinnia-kinetic-sculpture/.html.


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: ArtF on March 11, 2016, 07:53:13 AM
Mark:

 Awesome job. Unlike my Bat sculpture, you built the proper mechanism,
I ended up using some magnets in my release, where you have the original
mechanism . Congrats on a great job.. It seems to work very very well..

   Grrr... I may have to redo mine now to properly work that mechanism ..

Art


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: marklazarz on March 11, 2016, 08:11:20 AM
The mechanism is simple, once you see it, but I did learn that friction plays a big role in whether or not it will run.  There are 6 ball bearings in the sculpture and I had to soak them in mineral spirits for a few days to dissolve the grease.  That helped but then I had to soak them in Silicone lubricant to reduce the friction further.  After the friction is dealt with, it's a matter of weights and timing, much like your Scimitar.


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: ArtF on March 11, 2016, 09:13:45 AM
Mark:

  I hadnt thought about treating bearings that way for such a sculpture .. Thanks for that!!!

Art


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: kobi on March 18, 2016, 10:03:03 PM
thanks Mark for the tip about treating your bearings. ..really has helped!!

best,

Kobi


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: danmauch on March 22, 2016, 09:03:48 AM
I recently built a kinetic sculpture called "Zinnia" from Clayton Boyer.  For anyone intereste d in learning about another kinetic drive mechanism, I highly recommend looking into Clayton's commercia lly available plan.  Without giving away secrets, a summary of my build can be seen here http://markswoodchips.com/zinnia-kinetic-sculpture/.html.

How long does your Zinna run from one winding?
Dan Mauch


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: ArtF on March 22, 2016, 12:32:18 PM
10 minutes from my calculati ons.. :)

Art


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: marklazarz on March 22, 2016, 02:36:50 PM
Clayton touts 40 - 45 minutes.  My actual run time is about 20 minutes.  The less friction, the more revolutio ns of the flywheels before gravity reverses the spin and triggers another impulse.  Based on my experienc e, friction, offset weight amount and timing, in that order, determine how long it will run.


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: ArtF on March 22, 2016, 03:59:38 PM
20 minutes is pretty good. Not long enough to annoy, but long enough to amaze. :)

Great job..

Art


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Kineticrazy on December 04, 2016, 10:37:49 AM
Mark,
   Wondering what size spring (pounds of force) you used for "Zinnia"? Could you get longer run times with a longer or heavier spring?
Looks fantastic, very nice work. I'm thinking of an attempt at my own design... but I'll be using a scroll saw to cut my parts...s igh.

Eric


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: marklazarz on December 04, 2016, 01:12:11 PM
Eric:

Clayton specifies this spring for his Zinnia http://shop.sdp-si.com/catalog/product/?id=A%203x51-20006

I wind the flywheel about 18 times for a full run with this spring so it's pretty long.  Run time is inversely proportio nal to friction, the number 1 factor for getting the most run time out of the sculpture .  There are not many parts to Zinnia so scroll sawing should be no problem although you will need a saw capable of reaching over 12" radius.

Mark


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Kineticrazy on December 04, 2016, 09:41:10 PM
Thank you for the info. I'm surprised it's only a pound of force. I've got my first kinetic engine running on a drop weight of one pound, 30 inch drop. I tried upping the weight, for longer run time(presently 15-20 min), but my pawl would not disengage on the return rotation with more weight added. I assumed my ratchet design was at fault or I needed to add weight to one side of my wheel to disengage the pawl.
   Have you experimen ted with heavier springs? I accidenta lly bought a 4.5 lb. 40 inch constant force spring (not constant torque) and was going to attempt trying it by drawing it out linearly (one spool) and attaching a string to the free end and winding the string to my drive spool and ratchet.
 Any thoughts on whether It will work? Will enough counter weight added be possible to disengage the pawl?

Keep in mind I have been using a pawl and ratchet of my own design (imagine a saw tooth ratchet with magnets embedded in the pawl) and not using David Roy's design yet. Do you think David's pawl design can handle more weight?


I've got 30 inches of throat on my Dewalt scroll saw (my favorite tool in my shop), and I can bend the blade ends 90 degrees if I have a long work piece. That gives me unlimited throat! (picture using the saw from the side, not the front)

Thanks again for the informati on, I hope you don't mind the questions ...

Genuinely kineticra zy,

Eric


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: marklazarz on December 05, 2016, 08:36:58 AM
Eric:

No, I have not experimen ted with different springs.  Disengagi ng the pawls falls under the category of timing, and a lot goes into it.  The only advice I can offer is to build something and then tinker with it until it runs.  You develop a feel for timing variables when you see the mechanism in motion.  Proven commercia lly available plans still require some fiddling.  If you design your own, don't expect the first iteration to be your masterpie ce.

I have not attempted to build any David Roy drive engines, maybe later next year.  Although I'm retired, I don't have enough time in the day to accomplis h all the things I want to.  Busy with Christmas gifts, modifying the control on my CNC, learning Aspire, playing with Gearotic, and now shoveling snow.

Mark


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: ArtF on December 05, 2016, 08:43:09 AM
Mark:

 All so true. I have a kinetic engine prototype half finished, lasers that need work, galvo cude to test with, and
the kinetic engine to complete, there just isnt enough time in the day. :)

   When building any kinetic object I really advise playing with every dimension in it.. you often improve it..

Art
 


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Dan Mauch on December 05, 2016, 10:58:13 AM
Last year I posted my version of Zinna. One of the improveme nts I made that really helped increase the duration of the machine was to make the drive mechanism out of 5mm acrylic.
Dan Mauch


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: ArtF on December 05, 2016, 12:11:14 PM
Hi Guys:

  Heres a photo of the engine Im working on.. the top rotating stage isnt on it yet..

shows the spring arrangeme nt though..

Art


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: ArtF on December 05, 2016, 12:14:48 PM
Couple more showing how the spring is used..

  This is a spring from vuclan springs, the constant torque, should give a few hours of motion..



Art


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Kineticrazy on December 05, 2016, 12:57:18 PM
The Bat Returns!!

Looks well built Art, beefy !! I'm curious about your mechanism, I'm imagining pawls on the outer wheel, that will trip that pawl off it's pin on the backstrok e? Does it advance one pin at the time? What size spring you got there? You've got me intrigued to say the least. Looking forward to pics of the outer wheel.

Good stuff,

Eric


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: ArtF on December 05, 2016, 01:54:24 PM
Eric:

  I got the springs awhile back, as I RECALL they are 4lb CT, about 160" long or something .. takes
20 winds on a 3" take-up spool. The outer pallet, as it spin's backwards grabs the pin the main ratchet is on, a magnet on the outer pawl then pulls the ratchet away leaving the outer pallet holding the pin on its own,This makes the outer pallet turn in reverse, and as it pulls away, the magnets separate and the main latch trips back in, thus one pin has turned. This means about 45 degrees of push per trip. This uses 2 magnets in a dual action, the first pulls the outer pawl in until it hits the pin, the magnet on the lower lever now is just offset enough to pull it outwards when friction releases it. This makes it dual action, the outer level pulls inwards to a limit, then the inner pulls outwards to the magnet, then it all reverses. 

   In testing, it seems ok but hasn't yet been fully assembled, I may end up switching the way it works as yet,
but I'm happy with the bottom, seems strong and has multiple possibili ties for tripping. . just gotta find one..

:)

Art
 



Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Kineticrazy on December 06, 2016, 10:11:52 AM
Art,
  I have nearly the same design. I'm wondering why you need the torsion spring to snap that pawl back in? wont gravity do the job?

I just attempted to post pics of my mechanism ....Forgi ve me,I can't figure out how...I click insert image and then don't know how to place the pics file from there.... any suggestio ns? (I did try the help function. ..all Greek to me) Sorry, I know I'm computer illiterat e :-[


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: ArtF on December 06, 2016, 10:22:08 AM
Hi:

  To place images, there is a "additiona l options " button below your message. Click it and a browse button will appear so
you can attach an image ( or 4)..

  I used a spring, because the ring of brass pins are always under tension from the CT spring, and the trigger can happen at any angle
so long as the two platforms are spinning in reverse direction with the bottom turning cw. Alway hard to explain these things :),,
which is why I hope to be able to allow simulatio ns of mechanism s like this one. Kinetic triggerin g can be so nonintuit ive that
Id like ot have a tool where I can play with shapes and how they interact as they spin .. might help creativit y some.

Art


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Kineticrazy on December 06, 2016, 12:37:20 PM
OK Art, gotcha. I get the jist of your engine. They are hard to describe, but here goes....

Here are pics of my unfinishe d project. The upper (inner) pawl is lifted by magnets glued to small dowels inserted in the outer wheel. They are adjustabl e, hence the extra holes. In the pic in the following post you can see the outer pawl catching the ratchet as the magnets lift the inner pawl. Gravity drops both pawls. The magnets are placed opposite the heavier end of the arm, to get the most from the back swing.



Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Kineticrazy on December 06, 2016, 12:38:32 PM
A couple more.....

Sorry for the huge pics, again, I don't know what I'm doing.... .. :-\


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: ArtF on December 06, 2016, 02:11:53 PM
Huge pics are fine, I liek them that way, allows me to zoom in on detail.

 You work as I do, experimen tation, changes, more experimen tation till it works. I
respect the process. I too tend to work that way, though the new bat was drawn and
conceived on paper, its the first one that was. Scimitar was seat of pants with many variation s
whicgh is why the drawings and such are piced together. Im hoping the bat is better
able to be documente d.

  Good work, keep it up..

Art


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Kineticrazy on December 06, 2016, 02:16:50 PM
Art, I was thinking that David Roy's pawl is shaped to avoid slipping off it's pin. If you wanted to eliminate that spring you could sand the end of your pawl....

these pics show the wheel coming to rest, reversing position, and starting again.



Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Kineticrazy on December 06, 2016, 02:19:38 PM
Sorry posting when you replied.. ..Thanks for your comments. Your seat of the pants design of scimitar is the reason I'm here!


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: ArtF on December 06, 2016, 04:01:21 PM
Im not so sure that would work for this design..b ecause of the way I designed the action of the trigger
it needs that spring to pull it back in just to eliminate the possabili ty fo runaway ratchet.. but we'll see, that design
may see many changes as I piece things together. .

Ill post videos as it starts to run.. if it starts to run.. :)

Art
 


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Kineticrazy on December 06, 2016, 04:46:34 PM
Ah, I see. I imagine the 4 lb. spring would make things get moving pretty quick. I accidenta lly bought a 4.5 lb. constant force (not torque) spring the other day. I have been wondering if it would work. I'm glad to hear yours does. I'll have to draw mine out it's 40" length to use it though. I've been trying to think of ways to incorpora te it into a design. I imagine something like hiding the coiled end on a spool behind a faux flower pot (flat against the wall) and building a hollow flower stem to hide the rest of the spring,then a flower designed wheel like "Zinnia"on top. I'd wind a string on the Zinnia spool and attach it to the free end of the spring.

Or maybe the tail of some creature.

It's amazing once these machines get in your head, how much time you spend thinking about them ! :D


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: ArtF on December 06, 2016, 08:43:03 PM
The original bat used a constant force spring, I thought it was constant torque, so I
spooled it that way. Worked fine.. but the guys at Vulcan spring told me it was wrong and
may wear out premature ly

Art


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Kineticrazy on December 06, 2016, 09:41:34 PM
That's interesti ng. The spring I bought is rated at 25,000 uses as compared to constant torque springs rated at 2500. I wonder how much it will be affected? Did you back wind your spring, or wind in the springs natural direction? Had you noticed a differenc e in lifespan on your creation?

I would love to be able to wind it, it being compact really leaves a lot of options.

I hope you don't mind the questions Art, I appreciat e your time.

Eric

This spring is a bit of a monster :o



Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: ArtF on December 06, 2016, 11:10:35 PM
Wow, thats quite a spring. I have a couple similar.. but mine of that size are way more than 4 lbs..

 I did back roll it, it worked fine in the original bat. But the springs Im using are much smaller. The spring
Im using sits on a 3/4" thick spool. Yours looks to be 2" thick or so.. How hard is it to roll off the spool?
Does it feel like 4lbs or much more? I have a couple that size and I can barely unroll the things..

Art


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Kineticrazy on December 07, 2016, 06:20:17 AM
If the seller can be trusted ??? it's 4.3 pounds, and an inch and a quarter wide. I can retract it, but it's my first 4 lb. spring so I have nothing to compare it to. I will test it with a known weight when I get a chance. It seems like it wont like being back wound.

heres the link on e-bay. He's got one more for sale...th e price was right anyway...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stainless-Steel-Constant-Force-Spring-48-L-X-1-25-W-25000-Cycle-Life-4-37lbs/291898742447?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D38530%26meid%3Dedb1d654c1b14e6e8d7d8ca2a0b06e23%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D8%26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D311745280230 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stainless-Steel-Constant-Force-Spring-48-L-X-1-25-W-25000-Cycle-Life-4-37lbs/291898742447?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D38530%26meid%3Dedb1d654c1b14e6e8d7d8ca2a0b06e23%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D8%26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D311745280230)


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: ArtF on December 07, 2016, 07:16:16 AM
It could very well be, Im no expert on springs. The one I used was only 3/4" wide or so in the original,
the spring Im using now is quite easy to roll, and does seem to have about 4lbs of torque, though I
have never measured it.

  I'll make sure to do a section on these springs when I finally get to a video on the bat mechanism
...when it works. :)

Art


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Kineticrazy on December 07, 2016, 08:32:18 AM
Some spring info Mark had posted earlier, suggested by Clayton Boyer to power "Zinnia". A 1 lb. pull.

http://shop.sdp-si.com/catalog/product/?id=A%203x51-20006 (http://shop.sdp-si.com/catalog/product/?id=A%203x51-20006)


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Dan Mauch on December 07, 2016, 02:18:36 PM
  One thing that I found was that 5mm acrylic dogs and parts seem to have less drag than wood. My version of zinna runs for  14:57 minutes. I was surprised by how much better the plastic parts performed over the wood.
Dan Mauch


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: ArtF on December 07, 2016, 05:22:55 PM
Hi Guys:

 Just posted a video of the new module simulatin g a proposed vane shape.. This shows how you can manipulat e the speeds between them and kinda looks like what Ive been aiming for. The shapes were dxf's..

Art

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbXJ3ZwNUrE&feature=youtu.be

and another

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkT3JidkmLM


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Kineticrazy on December 08, 2016, 08:32:57 AM
Dan,
   The friction reduction you've found, I'm trying to picture exactly where the friction occurs. Is it the pin passing over your plastic pawls that flows more smoothly?

Art,
   You've got a handle on the science behind these things, I wanted to ask you about something I've noticed. I was experimen ting with trying to increase the number of rotations in my engine. I added magnets to increase the time power is supplied to my outer wheel. To my surprise I had no improveme nt. It seems that one pound of force produces the same number of turns, no matter how long that force is applied. Do you agree with my finding? This would suggest adding weight is possibly my solution, sadly my ratchet and pawl design doesn't like additiona l weight, and wont release on the back swing.
  I read an earlier post you made concernin g flywheel radius (larger radius, slower rotation), and am going to experimen t in that direction .

I plan on using David Roy's pawl and pins design in the future, but am trying to get the most out of my current project. If anyone has any suggestio ns, feel free to chime in !

Eric


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: ArtF on December 08, 2016, 09:31:12 AM
Hi Eric:

  Magnets will add nothing typically to rotation. As you approach a magnet, it does pull, but as you leave it
an exactly equal amount of energy is subtracte d. Magnets will never give you energy, BUT they can influence the
non-intuitive motions of connected vanes etc.. which we'll discuss soon on release of kinetics.

  Your rotation speed typically in a vane system is a result of angular inertia and thrust of the spring. This inertia is a combinati on of the weight of the wheel and the centering placement of that weight.

  Gravity cares not a whit if you weight a ton, or an ounce. It will affect you the same. BUT, it matters if that ton or ounce is off center, as it does in all pendulums and most vanes. You will find that no matter what you do in terms of weight and balance, your time will be mostly the same, but your speed will vary. As a mass becomes more off center from its pivot the inertia increases by the square of the distance. Inertia is the reluctanc e to turn, but also the reluctanc e to slow.  In other words its a measure of how much energy it will take to change the rotation speed. So lets say your vanes do 4 rotations in 15 seconds, then slows to a stop. In an effort to increase that time, you increase the mass so it slows down due to increased inertia. What you'll find if you slow it down by half, if that you'll do 2 rotations, but it will still take 15 seconds. Worse yet, if you off center the mass in that effort to get it slower, the gravitic losses will increase. It will begin to act like a pendulum and youll get no full rotations, but the time will exasperat ingly remain about the same.  A pendulum 36" long will take a second to swing a cycle,
and it doesn't matter if you use a car as a bob, or a car battery, or a feather.

  Now we all want the vanes to be off center masses, we typically need that swing at the end, we know it will start from near the top, and swing down to the bottom with kinetic power equal to its mass propertie s, but its a balance. Too much and the vane losses any real speed.. so finding that balance is an important part of the vanes you choose, the speed due to inertia, and the time due to the laws of gravity are intrinsic in how you design the arms, as it impacts heavily on the visual interfera nce
component s of the design. As you can imagine, two cool looking vanes turning too fast no longer look cool. Too slow and the same thing happens. Its a range of end speeds one wants to complimen t the visual elements.

    Now Im one that finds it very hard to imagine effects such as these. How arms will look as they pass each other can
actually be considere d as a frequency equation and based on human perceptio n times, something Ill be investiga ting in the future, but I digest ( breakfast ). :-)

    To increase the number of rotations, assuming you don't have too much friction in bearings and such, requires
either lowering the weight of the vanes ( though total time of rotations will stay near identical) or adding power by
increasin g spring or weight, which will also increase end run time of the cycle ( and lower total run time of the device. )

 So its all a balance. Not a very intuitive one, but a balance none the less. The more you understan d about angular
momentum, inertia and mass, the more intuitive it becomes.

   In the new module, ( weeks away or less I hope), you can specify a material ( like 1/4 plywood, or 1/2" steel..et c...)
to get an idea as to how they differ. You can drag center of mass to a new location to observe the effects that creates
in terms of total time and speed. I did this that way to try to create not only a sense of realism, but to try to educate
on how all these things combine to control your sculpture .  I will be adding magnets and such so you can observe
how no matter how clever you consider yourself you just cannot get energy from them. Ill be allowing dxf's of various
shapes, sizes, materials and propertie s to be used with as realistic a gravity simulatio n as my talents allow me to make.

    I'm doing all this because I too find it hard to think in 4th dimension space. Consideri ng time isn't something humans
do well except those very lucky artistic types I admire so much. So soon you can play with all these factors to try to
imagine how to get more run-time and how to make that run-time not go too fast, or too slow for your design.

  I cant promise reality, its the nature of simulatio ns that you get only so close, but I think such a tool is probably
very valuable to others who want to be as artistic as possible but just cant imagine what monarch will look like
till it spins.

 Long answer I know, but in summary, you can slow your vanes, or speed them up with mass manipulat ion, but total run-time will be much the same unless you increase power. Or so the numbers tell me, they never lie, but I often misunders tand what they say. :)

Art

 



Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Kineticrazy on December 08, 2016, 08:31:42 PM
Art,
  Excellent response! Very informati ve. I do want to explain that I did not add magnets thinking they would pull my vanes or wheel, but the added magnets were there to keep the pawl in the up position for a longer duration, allowing for a longer push.

Man, it is difficult describin g these things  ;D

I am very happy with your teachings, Obi-Wan. I shall seek a balance within the force !!!

Not yet a Jedi,

Eric


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: ArtF on December 08, 2016, 08:40:42 PM
Eric:

 Sorry I misunders tood. Its a common discussio n in many places on using magnets to add speeds and such. :)
And yes, these are all really hard to describe things.

Art


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Kineticrazy on December 08, 2016, 08:52:45 PM
Art,
  I did not want you thinking I was a "free energy" nut  :P

In the words of a movie astronaut recently stranded on Mars...."You scienced the shit out of it!"


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: ArtF on December 08, 2016, 11:04:37 PM
lol.. there's worse types of nuts about..


Art


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Dan Mauch on December 09, 2016, 12:07:41 PM
Dan,
   The friction reduction you've found, I'm trying to picture exactly where the friction occurs. Is it the pin passing over your plastic pawls that flows more smoothly?

I found that even the slightest drag of the spring rubbing against the flanges of the spools was one place.  The dogs slide better than the wooden ones and they are a bit heavier so the actuate better. It's been at least a year since I built it but at age 74 I am sure there were other reasons why the acrylic run better than the wood.
Dan Mauch



Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Kineticrazy on December 09, 2016, 10:13:55 PM
Thanks Dan,
    I'm questioni ng the use of bearings in my machine. I use skateboar d bearings, shields removed, cleaned and lubricate d...but they don't spin like the bearings I remember as a kid.The caged balls in skateboar d bearings seem to slow them down. They don't "free wheel" but seem to have more friction than a sleeved hole and shaft would have. What sort of bearings have you been using? Your sculpture s are beautiful and run well, I would love to know some of your methods.. .counter rotating wheels has got me a pulling out what little remaining hair I have left, and you seem to have them mastered. I would be overjoyed if you shed some light on their design.

74 is the new 50 !!

Thanks for your time,

Eric


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Dan Mauch on December 10, 2016, 10:47:51 AM
 Yesterday after looking at the side of my version of Zinna I then remembere d that the pin that the storage spring spool  also had a slight drag which was another reason to make that spool also out of acrylic. I also installed bearing on the other spool. BTW I only wind my Zinna 18 turns and get about 15 minutes of run time with  stock spring Boyer recommend s. I am using shielded bearings but I run them for a time before installin g them. When I use to work on Submarine s one of the jobs was to assemble the SV radar gearbox. After it was assembled I place thermomet ers on the cases where the bearing were and it was surprisin g. When I ran the gearbox in the shop the temperatu res rose on the bearing housings but after about a 1/2 hour of running the bearing temps would drop to ambient. I never forgot that and thus always run my bearings either by a electric drill or some bearings I take out to the shop and use a compresse d air nozzle with the bearing on an arbor and spin it up. You be surprised at how fast they run that way. Possibly 100000 RPM !!!!
Dan Mauch


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: John T on December 10, 2016, 11:20:55 AM
Hi Dan,
I was wondering if you ever used Glycerine for a lubricant?  Its about the slippyies t stuff I know if you get it on your hands but I have no idea if it would work on slow moving items such as a kinetic art piece.

John


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Kineticrazy on December 10, 2016, 01:26:17 PM
Dan,
   That's a great idea to loosen up your bearings!! I've got a fresh box of bearings awaiting treatment .

Thanks for the tip,


Eric

P.S.  I've rung quite a bit of seawater out of my socks as well !!


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Ya-Nvr-No on December 10, 2016, 02:02:12 PM
Scares me!  :o


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Dan Mauch on December 10, 2016, 05:01:33 PM
 Here is a short video that I just made to demonstra te the differenc e between a non spun up bearing and one that is. Be careful if yoy try this as I would estimate the speed at 100K RPM  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MW3EmghwEfQ&feature=youtu.be

Dan

Dan,
   That's a great idea to loosen up your bearings!! I've got a fresh box of bearings awaiting treatment .

Thanks for the tip,


Eric

P.S.  I've rung quite a bit of seawater out of my socks as well !!


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Kineticrazy on December 10, 2016, 09:28:07 PM
Dan,
    Thanks for taking the time to make the video. Good stuff.

Appreciat ed,

Eric


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: ArtF on December 10, 2016, 10:00:56 PM
Thx Dan..grea t idea..

Art


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Kineticrazy on December 11, 2016, 12:55:42 AM
Dan,
   I noticed the bearing in the video was still shielded. It was suggested in another thread to remove the shields, soak and clean the bearings with mineral spirits and then soak and lubricate them with silicone. Do you go through the same process?

I was wondering if anyone has tried thrust bearings. I happened upon them when poking around the internet. ..here's an example..

https://www.amazon.com/51100-Thrust-Bearing-10x24x9-Bearings/dp/B002BBJSDG/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8 (https://www.amazon.com/51100-Thrust-Bearing-10x24x9-Bearings/dp/B002BBJSDG/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8)

Thanks,

Eric


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Dan Mauch on December 11, 2016, 10:49:42 AM
 No i haven't removed the shield. At the time I did Zinna I had the shielded bearings and by running them with air I felt that was about as good as I can get. But I will keep your method in mind and later this week will remove a shield and see if I can make a quantitat ive improveme nt with bearing and no shield.

I have been using Torringto n NTA-411 and TRA-411  (1/4" ID) thrust bearings and washers for years. My Horsing Around sculpture s uses them on all the between the spring spool and the wooded backing. Anywhere there could be any drag between the rotating and stationar y parts.

Dan Mauch

Dan,
   I noticed the bearing in the video was still shielded. It was suggested in another thread to remove the shields, soak and clean the bearings with mineral spirits and then soak and lubricate them with silicone. Do you go through the same process?

I was wondering if anyone has tried thrust bearings. I happened upon them when poking around the internet. ..here's an example..

https://www.amazon.com/51100-Thrust-Bearing-10x24x9-Bearings/dp/B002BBJSDG/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8 (https://www.amazon.com/51100-Thrust-Bearing-10x24x9-Bearings/dp/B002BBJSDG/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8)

Thanks,

Eric


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Kineticrazy on December 11, 2016, 02:31:09 PM
Dan,
   I'm learning a lot. I just studied up on thrust bearings a bit, there are lots of design options to eliminate friction. Have you found a supplier with a decent price? If you need more than 2 or 3  it's gonna get pricey quick.



Another great suggestio n,

Thanks again,

Eric


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Dan Mauch on December 11, 2016, 05:55:44 PM
Try http://www.vxb.com/

Dan Mauch


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: AndyUK on March 02, 2020, 01:43:36 PM
Hi All,

I'd like to make a ticker based on Clayton Boyer's Zinnia - but I'd like to do it the hard way, so I'm avoiding the plans for now. I've got a few questions before I move forward:

Regards the spring that Mark so helpfully divulged the specifica tion of, unfortuna tely the postage to the UK is quite expensive . I've been trying to find an alternati ve, but an exact duplicate is proving elusive. Could anyone suggest if this one is suitable? If not - can you see a suitable alternati ve from the seller?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32813640339.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32813640339.html)

Now, bearings. I've been thinking of using Needle Thrust Bearings. Would these below be suitable? I was thinking of using a precision 12mm main shaft as in commonly used as an inexpensi ve linear guide - it seems a lot of people us threaded rod, but that strikes me as a sub-obtimal choice, as the shaft not having a constant diameter can't be helping things.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AXK1226-Needle-Roller-Thrust-Bearing-thin-washer-bearing-with-2-AS-Washers/273885199745?hash=item3fc4d47d81:g:9GYAAOSw9 6Fco2hk (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AXK1226-Needle-Roller-Thrust-Bearing-thin-washer-bearing-with-2-AS-Washers/273885199745?hash=item3fc4d47d81:g:9GYAAOSw96Fco2hk)

How critical is the design of the three wooden latches on the back of the output drum? My current thinking is that I just have to limit their motion to either engage well with the pin on the rear vane, or flick out the way completel y. Why are they typically quite large?

Thanks!
Andy


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Dan Mauch on March 03, 2020, 01:06:23 PM
I built my version of Zinna about 5 years ago . I cut my design out with a laser. As I recall I could not get the correct part from SDI becuase they were out and it would take several months before they had them. I did a search and found the supplier that makes them for SDI and here is what I found
spring width 3/8"
spring length 106"
torque 1.13Lb in


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: Aviv on December 16, 2020, 01:57:52 PM
Dan,
   I noticed the bearing in the video was still shielded. It was suggested in another thread to remove the shields, soak and clean the bearings with mineral spirits and then soak and lubricate them with silicone. Do you go through the same process?

I was wondering if anyone has tried thrust bearings. I happened upon them when poking around the internet. ..here's an example..

https://www.amazon.com/51100-Thrust-Bearing-10x24x9-Bearings/dp/B002BBJSDG/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8 (https://www.amazon.com/51100-Thrust-Bearing-10x24x9-Bearings/dp/B002BBJSDG/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8)

Thanks,

Eric

For kinetic sculpture s, that are not experienc ing high loads (I think?), would it be valuable to wash the bearings in mineral spirits, to remove the lubricati on in order to reduce friction, without lubricati ng back?
I know the lubricati on is there for a reason, but it also adds friction, and maybe for the weights involved in kinetic sculpture s this isnít an issue?


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: ArtF on December 16, 2020, 02:50:44 PM
I'd agree with that, so long as it isn't wobbly.. the least resistanc e as possible is
desirable ..


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: steve323 on December 20, 2020, 02:34:39 PM
I have been testing various bearing configura tions for pendulum supports. It is not exactly the same setup as a kinetic sculpture, but I believe some of the same principle s apply. Less friction is better.

The load is around 8 ounces. I measure the time that it takes for the swing to degrade from +/-8 degrees to +/-1 degree.

Here are the swing times of various 623 (3x10x4mm) ball bearing configura tions:
    5m 50s  sealed with factory grease intact
    7m 40s  shielded with factory grease intact
  14m 00s  shields removed and cleaned - low end of range
  20m 50s  shields removed and cleaned - high end of range
  24m 30s  shields removed and cleaned with Teflon dry lube added

The bearings were generic eBay versions costing around $5 for 10 bearings. 3 of the 10 were slightly tighter than the others. The remaining 7 would probably all last around 20 minutes or better.

My clock with ball bearings for the pendulum support has been running non-stop for two years with no signs of wear. Running then dry seems OK when the load is significa ntly lower than the rated max loads.

Steve


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: ArtF on December 20, 2020, 04:16:07 PM
>>24m 30s  shields removed and cleaned with Teflon dry lube added


 Good god, thats way better than I figured on top of head. Thats a long time to degrade ..

Art


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: steve323 on December 20, 2020, 05:24:17 PM
>>24m 30s  shields removed and cleaned with Teflon dry lube added


 Good god, thats way better than I figured on top of head. Thats a long time to degrade ..

Art


It was much longer than I expected as well, especiall y since they were random no-name bearings.

A pendulum degrading in 24 minutes only needs 1/3 as much restoring force as an 8 minute pendulum. I hope to post a video soon showing the complete results.

Steve


Title: Re: Kinetic sculpture designed by Clayton Boyer
Post by: ArtF on December 20, 2020, 09:27:20 PM
Steve:

   Its all good to know. In future I know the way Ill go.. :)

Art